Graham Gouldman: The SDE interview

Graham Gouldman’s latest album, I Have Notes, features an impressive list of collaborators, including Ringo Starr, Brian May, Hank Marvin, Albert Lee and Beth Nielsen Chapman.

The follow up to 2020’s Modesty Forbids, it’s a classy, well-crafted and eclectic record that embraces country music, guitar pop, early rock ‘n’ roll, late-period Beatles influences, folk and swing-jazz.

Gouldman, who has enjoyed a 60-year career – he started out as a freelance singer-songwriter, became one of the founding members of British art-rock band, 10cc, and, alongside Andrew Gold, was one half of the duo, Wax – tells SDE about the inspirations behind some of the songs on I Have Notes, and shares some memories of penning ‘60s hits for other acts, including The Yardbirds and The Hollies.

SDE: Let’s talk about the new album. The first single, ‘We’re Alive,’ was written in Nashville…

Graham Gouldman: I didn’t record any of the songs in Nashville, but I wrote one of the songs there – I go over there now and again to write. I have quite a few writing partners there – two of them are regular ones: Beth Nielsen Chapman and Gordon Kennedy, who I wrote ‘We’re Alive’ with. I love working with them.

It’s a positive and upbeat song and it reminds me of Paul McCartney… Something like ‘Dance Tonight…’

Yeah. I was in Nashville, and I started playing what I thought was a kind of country riff, and Beth and Gordon joined in, and we had the song really quickly. The environment influenced what we were going to write. From that opening riff and how it evolved, it was always going to be a positive song – it would’ve been ridiculous to write it about someone contemplating suicide, wouldn’t it?

How does writing with other people change your approach to creating songs?

It brings out other things in you that you might not have thought about, and you can be messing around – almost unconsciously playing something – and your partner might say, ‘What’s that?’ And you say, ‘Oh – it’s nothing,’ and they say, ‘I like that,’ and it can lead to something.

Some artists write songs remotely – sending their collaborators ideas over email. Do you ever do that, or do you like to be in the same room, thrashing things out?

I have done that, but I prefer to be in a room – things happen quicker. You might come up with an idea, but you can look at the other person and say, ‘Hmmm – it’s not happening…’

I wrote a song with Tim Rice – he sent me a lyric and we were never in the same room when the lyric and music came together. I’m not stuck in any one way, but there’s much more joy when you’re in a room with the people you’re working with.

‘Floating In Heaven’ is a spacy ballad with a Beatles feel and a Brian May guitar solo…

Wonderful. All Brian’s guitar parts – not just the solo, but all the incidental parts – are superb. That song was inspired by the launch of the James Webb Space Telescope. I started following it on the NASA website and I got enchanted by the whole thing and what it could do, looking back billions of years and sending back amazing pictures.

And Brian’s obviously a keen astronomer – he loves space…

He does – and he’s an astrophysicist, so he’s sorted in that department. When the song was just starting out, I played it to Andrew [Campbell] at my record company [Lojinx], and he said, ‘You should get Brian May to play on it.’ I sent him the song and he said, ‘I love it – it’s great.’ He was really involved with the whole production, as well as playing and singing on it.

There’s a choral effect on it that’s a nod to 10cc’s ‘I’m Not in Love…’

Yes – it’s a nod to it, and why not? I was one of its creators. The backing vocals use the same long-winded method that it took to create that.

‘Floating In Heaven’, came out as a single a few years ago – I thought it was a brilliant collaboration, and it was important because I worked on that and got back into a writing mode. If that happens, I don’t resist it – even though I’d only put a record out a few years back.

Are you a prolific songwriter? Some people churn songs out regularly – even on a daily basis…

Definitely not daily, but if I’ve got to do it, I do it – particularly if I’m in a situation where I’m collaborating. I always come up with something – whether or not it’s any good is another matter…

We mentioned Brian May, but there’s also another guitar hero on your album – Hank Marvin plays on ‘When You Find Love…’

We were recording the song and we’d got to where the solo was… I’d done one, but I thought, ‘Wouldn’t it be great to get someone like Hank Marvin to play on it,’ because I thought it might suit his style.

His touch and sound – there’s no one like him. It’s the same with Brian – you can tell him a mile off.

I knew Hank – we’d met a couple of times in Perth, Australia, where he lives. As with everybody who I approached to play on the album, I said I’d be honoured if they would consider it, but it wasn’t a problem if they didn’t think they could do it or it didn’t resonate with them, but everybody I approached said they would do it.

What inspired ‘Play Me (The Ukulele Song)’? Was it written on a ukulele?

My wife bought me a ukulele as a birthday present many years ago. The song was originally written for a children’s album that I was involved with during lockdown – I did a lot of stuff then, as I frantically wanted to keep working. I’m not a person who can watch daytime telly all day.

As I was writing the song, I thought it was quite charming, and I didn’t want to waste it on a library album, which might never see the light of day. I thought it was quite a visual song, so I asked Kevin Godley to do a video for it – he did a lovely job on it.

We talked about the song ‘We’re Alive,’ but, in complete contrast, there’s also a song called ‘I’m Lazy’ on the album…

[Laughs]. Yes, I hadn’t realised that.

That song has a darker edge and a sadness to it – it’s about someone who is suffering from depression and hiding away after being cheated on…

Yes – that’s really what the song’s about. I wrote it quite a long time ago. I think it might’ve been for 10cc Mark II, but it didn’t make the cut. It was unearthed by two guys… There are a few people who hunt down demos – it’s something I wouldn’t have done but thank goodness that they do it. There were two songs – I didn’t like the other one. I liked it musically, but I didn’t like the lyric – I thought it was too pompous. But I liked the other one and thought, ‘Ooh – I’m going to re-record this.’

You’ve put a Christmas song, ‘A Christmas Affair’, on an album that comes out in July…

Yes – I know. I’m sorry about that – get over it. I think that also started life as a song for a library album, but I thought it was too good… 

It’s a lovely fun song, and the top jazz guys in this country played on it. I’d recorded with them on my last album, Modesty Forbids – there’s a track called ‘That’s Love Right There,’ which has a jazz-swing feel. I used the same boys on it – they were terrific, and it was a lot of fun to record. It’s a fun and slightly cheeky kind of song.

It’s a duet with Beth Nielsen Chapman and it feels like a classic Christmas song, but with an interesting twist…

Exactly. I initially asked my wife, Ariella, to sing on it, because of the lyrical content – it didn’t seem appropriate to sing it with anybody else – but bless her, we went in the studio, and she did try and sing it, but it didn’t work. I could’ve sung it on my own, but it works so much better as a duet. I asked Ariella if it was OK if Beth sang it with me – she knows her, and she said, ‘Yes – no problem.’

Ringo Starr plays on ‘Couldn’t Love You More’, which has a real late-period Beatles sound…

I wrote that song with Phil Thornalley – him and I go way back. He produced the first album that I made with the late, great Andrew Gold, as Wax. I’d started this song, and it was so blatantly Beatles… I said, ‘There’s only one person… we’ve got to ask Ringo to play on it…’ I’m very happy that he did.

Did he come to the UK to do it?

No – he did it at his studio in Los Angeles.

‘It’s Time For Me To Go’ is an autobiographical song about being on the road, missing your family, and hanging out with the band…

Yes – your family and your extended family, in a way, and being torn between them, because you love being with them both, but when you’re away, you’re missing somebody. When I’m away, I speak to Ariella two or three times a day, so we’re very communicative.

You turned 78 earlier this year. Do you still enjoy touring?

Yes – I do. I don’t have to do it, and if I didn’t enjoy it, I wouldn’t do it. I think audiences pick up on when you’re going through the motions, and I don’t think that’s right. This year is really busy.

You’re going to the States with 10cc in July and August for the band’s first shows there in more than 40 years…

Yes – the last time we went was in the late ‘70s.

Why has it taken so long to play there again?

Nobody asked us to go back – all the deals we were offered just didn’t make sense.

Next year is the 50^th anniversary of 10cc’s Original Soundtrack album. Any plans to celebrate that?

I’m thinking about doing something, although Sheet Music is the album for me. I like all the early albums – I love the first album we ever did, which is called 10cc. There are some real gems on that.

A lot of people think Original Soundtrack is the best album we ever did – probably because it has ‘I’m Not in Love’ and ‘One Night In Paris’ on it.

And ‘Life is a Minestrone’…

Yes – and that, as well.

Does it feel like 50 years since you made that record?

Nothing feels as long ago as it was. That’s one of the things about getting older – you think something happened three or four years ago, but it was 10 years… I have very fond memories of it – we went through a golden period.

The last track on your new album is a blistering live version of ‘Heart Full of Soul’ – a song you wrote for The Yardbirds back in the ‘60s. The new version is from a 2022 festival in Armenia – why did you decide to include it?

It’s from the Starmus Festival – Brian May does it every two years, I think. They were putting out a video of a concert that I did there – I went over to do ‘Floating In Heaven,’ but Brian said as I was coming over, could I do some other songs as well?

One of them was ‘Heart Full of Soul’ – when I was sent a mix of it for my approval, I was just blown away by it. It’s rough and ready but it’s got a real great vibe to it. I asked permission from everybody involved if I could put it on the album as a kind of bonus track – it’s a lovely way to finish the album.

The original version by The Yardbirds, which came out in 1965, was an important song for the band because it was their first single after Jeff Beck replaced Eric Clapton on guitar…

Correct.

What are your memories of writing it?

I was going through a period of listening to Indian music and I had this riff… A lot of the songs I wrote in the ‘60s started with a riff, rather than a chord sequence. It just sort of rolled out from there.

The demo I did is quite different from what The Yardbirds did – they changed it quite a lot and did a fantastic job. I love their version – and, God bless him, Jeff Beck is still the king. He’s just the best.

You wrote ‘Bus Stop’, which is my favourite song by The Hollies – it has a classic British melancholic feel. Where did that song come from?

I think it has almost a Mancunian feel… I had the idea for the song – my dad used to write lyrics with me. I told him the idea, I came home one day, and he’d written the first verse – as I read it, I heard it.

The lyrics inspired the melody – I wrote it, and I had a riff, but I needed a middle part. I wrote (sings): ‘Every morning I would see her waiting at the stop’ in my head – the music and the lyrics just came out in one piece. I remember rushing home and putting it together – I couldn’t record it on a smartphone in those days. It was a song that was written in two parts.

Did you write ‘For Your Love’, which became a hit for The Yardbirds, in 1965, when you were 16?

I was 19 – I don’t know where that 16 thing has come from.

You originally wrote it for your band The Mockingbirds…

Correct – that was the demo. Funnily enough, I’ve just been listening to it prior to speaking to you because Sky Arts are going to do a documentary on The Yardbirds and I’ve had a request for the demos of some of the songs.

How different is your demo to the Yardbirds’ version?

The arrangement is slightly different, but it’s pretty similar, and you can hear the things that changed – there’s no harpsichord on it.

That was Brian Auger on the harpsichord, wasn’t it?

Yes – the reason there’s a harpsichord on it was because when he went to do the session, he thought he was going to play the piano, but there was no piano, only a harpsichord… That’s amazing – to have a harpsichord and bongos on a record was mad, but there you go…

Finally, as it just so happens, yesterday, I was in my local second-hand record shop and I bought a seven-inch of the Yardbirds double A-side ‘Evil Hearted You’ / ‘Still I’m Sad’ for one pound…

Wow! You’ve got a good deal there.

Thanks to Graham Gouldman, who was talking to Sean Hannam for SDE.  I Have Notes is out now and 10cc are on tour later this year.

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